1. Which of the three positions concerning God’s sovereignty do you think best
represent God? Explain.

Providential Sovereignty best illustrates how I envision God as both causing and allowing free will to exist. God can enter into an event or allow an outside cause to influence an event. Meticulous Sovereignty as the first cause of all things would be the cause of all evil, this is contradictory to the goodness of God. Providential Sovereignty is nullifying the sovereignty of God altogether.

How does God’s sovereignty relate to the fall of Adam and Eve? Do you think that He planned the fall or simply allowed it to occur?

God knowing the inmost being of humanity, knew what Eve’s choice would be and made saving arrangements. I do not think He planned the Fall, but he did create Adam and Eve with the potential for choosing evil, thus He also had to make plans for the potential salvation of the world.

2. How is the cross a demonstration of God’s righteousness (see Rom. 3:25)?

(Rom 3:25) whom God put forward as a propitiation by his blood, to be received by faith. This was to show God’s righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over former sins.

Grudem states, “God’s righteousness means that God always acts in accordance with what is right and is himself the final standard of what is right. “ Thus, the God of righteousness must punish sin. Paul, in the Romans passage above shows that God in His righteousness provided a sacrifice to bear the punishment for that sin. So when Christ died He paid the penalty for our sins showing that God was indeed righteous.

3. Do you think that the Gospel can be accurately communicated with a presentation of God’s love without reference to His righteousness?

No. God must be a righteous God. Removal of righteousness as an attribute of God would leave His creation with no promise of justice. No justice and a literal hell would prevail upon earth. True love requires righteousness and justice. Christ’s act of love, His atoning death on the cross would be meaningless without the realization of righteousness and justice.

4. Why do you think that it has become less and less common to teach about God’s righteousness?

As secular humanism has further penetrated into the Christian Churches, people have turned away from listening to a God centered spirituality to a man-centered spirituality. They have come to look for teachings that support their happiness and self-fulfillment

5. How does it comfort you to understand that God’s goodness, love, and grace are part of His immutable character? Explain.

If God was not immutable, then he could change His mind and remove His goodness, love, and grace from me. He could parcel it out on a whim. Thank His Holy Name that He is immutable and His goodness, love and grace are permanent characteristics, without which I would not have received salvation and would not have as an example in which to live my life.

6. What do we have to do to make God act lovingly and graciously toward us?

Nothing. God provides for all His creatures acting lovingly and graciously to all.
We do not deserve His grace and love, but it is there for us anyway.

How does the understanding that we were created in the image of God help you to answer this?

God created mankind in His image, another words we have a small amount of His communicable attributes at our disposal. Unfortunately, Mankind tends not to display these attributes. I thank my God that He has provided me with the way in which to grow in His communicable attributes, such as goodness, love and grace.

7. In what ways would it disturb you if you thought that God did not know the future? Explain.

One of the attributes of God is omniscience or all knowledge. If God did not know the future, then He would not be omniscient and would not know the beginning from the end. If this were the case, then God might not be God at all. Then all would be as nothing. Indeed, if God were not God at all, it would disturb me greatly.

8. In what way would it comfort you if you thought that God did not know the future?

It would not comfort me at all. However, theoretically it would explain why evil happens or at least make it much easier to explain why bad things happen.

9. Further discuss how Open Theology might be a reactionary theology attempting to answer the question, “Why does God allow evil?”

John Frame presents “The Problem of Evil” in a nutshell, “The problem is this: How could there be any evil in the world, if God exists? If God is good, he does not want evil to exist; if he is all-powerful, he is able to prevent its existence. Nevertheless, evil exists. So, some conclude, either God is not good, or he is not all-powerful, or he does not exist at all. Open Theology’s solution is that God did not bring evil into the world. Rather, he made creatures who are free in the libertarian sense, and they, through their free choices, bring evil into the world.” The Open theists go to great lengths to solve an issue that is greater than our understanding. They insist that the solution lies in the free will of mankind. Mankind through their use of freedom bring evil into the world.

Discuss the danger of all theology that is constructed as reactionary.

Reactionary theology calls into dispute God’s omnipotence. Also, who are we to take issue with those standards which God has determined for us? The result is a theology that is unbiblical and hap-hazard.

10. How was your thinking most challenged by this lesson?

The three views of God’s Sovereignty caused me to pause. Do I really understand the views, where do I come down, what are the ramifications of those views? Really hard questions.

Well, on the surface, the providential sovereignty of God arguments sounds and works the best. However, I believe that there are many more events and circumstances in life that are connected than we probably realize. So, on a continum, I would lean more toward the meticulous sovereignty of God than toward providential oversight.

1b. How does God’s sovereignty relate to the fall of Adam and Eve? Do you think that He planned the fall or simply allowed it to occur?

Again, since I am below the arch and God is above the arch, I am certain that I can not adequately explain what is going on here, but I’ll give it a shot. In my opinion, God allowed the fall but also planned for it and knew that the fall would also allow God to show more of Himself and demonstrate more of His love and glory.

2. How is the cross a demonstration of God’s righteousness (Romans 3:25).

The cross demonstrates that God looked over our sins and looks to the cross as the punishment for our sins. This shows that Christ sits as the mercy seat for us making it possible for His righteousness to be placed upon us so that we may have access to the Father. Only God’s righteousness upon us would allow us to be in His presence.

3. Do you think that the Gospel can be accurately communicated with a presentation of God’s love without reference to His righteousness?

In order for God’s righteousness to be understood, I believe that a person needs to have an understanding of what sin is. Therefore, I do not believe that a person can have an understanding of the Gospel without an understanding of God’s righteousness and sin. Without understanding our sin problem, it lessens the understanding of what His love means for us and becomes much more watered-down.

4. Why do you think that it has become less and less common to teach about God’s righteousness?

I believe that contemporary post-modernism’s emphasis on relativity and love has taken away from the concepts of right and wrong. This type of thinking justifies nearly every type of behavior and thereby cheapens the meaning of righetouseness and holiness.

5. How does it comfort you to understand that God’s goodness, love and grace are part of His immutable character? Explain.

Knowing that God never changes, that His love never changes and that He will always be good, give me the assurance of my salvation and His love and care for me for all time. This is a tremendous comfort to know that God does not fail, His promises are secure and they are everlasting!

6a. What do we have to do to make God act lovingly and graciously toward us?

Nothing. Its all about Him. Its all about His choice, His sovereignty and His grace.

6b. How does the understanding that we were created in the image of God help you to answer this?

Being created in the image of God, allows me to understand and share a relationship with God in which no other being can share. God has communicated to me in a way in which I can understand some of what He has done. He has placed a value on me and others by creating me the way He has, even my creation is totally based upon His choice.

7. In what ways would it disturb you if you thought that God did not know the future? Explain.

If God did not know the future, than His promises and covenants would be empty. His promise of salvation, His Son, redemption would all be a guess. Even if He was all-powerful, He would logically not be fully God if He did not know the future.

8. In what way would it comfort you if you thought that God did not know the future?

In some ways, if God did not know the future, than I believe that all people would have more control over our eternal destinies. But, this is not a good thing. I am not sure that God not knowing the future really has any positive implications.

9. Further discuss how Open Theology might be a reactionary theology attempting to answer the question, “Why does God allow evil?”

This question is one of the most difficult for people to explain and comprehend. Open Theology attempts to tackle this issue is a way which I do not believe is consistent with the Bible. Taking power away from God places more power and control in people. People like having control, even if it has negative implications. By placing the problem of evil on people as it belongs, they place it on people by limiting God and not recognizing the inherit evil within mankind.

9b. Discuss the danger of all theology that is constructed as reactionary.

Doctrine and theology has certainly developed over time and become more formalized. Simply saying the Reformation was reactionary would not give it its full due. Simply dismissing an argument as reactionary fails to deal with the issues raised by that argument or to wrestle with it.

10. How was your thinking most challenged by this lesson?

As with all the lessons in this unit, I am finding my thinking stretched in ways I have not been stretched before. The depth of the sovereignty of God is a very interesting topic. The difference between what God allows and what God directly does is very interesting and the differences are subtle. This concept will continue to fascinate me.

I have mixed feeling on the issue of Adam and Eve. On the one hand, God didn’t cause the fall because Adam and Eve made their choices. However, a part of me feels that the fall had to happen; otherwise could we really choose God if we had nothing else to compare Him to?

2. The cross is the ultimate demonstration of God’s righteousness because God cannot deny himself, and his character requires justice. So, through that one act we see God’s judgment and mercy.

3. I think love and righteousness have to go together in order to reflect God’s character accurately. One without the other would describe God as arbitrary and affect his necessary attribute of immutability.

4. Teaching less about God’s righteousness probably attracts more people. As a group we have become more self-centered and more de-sensitized to what constitutes sinful or immoral behavior. We like to believe that “I’m basically a good person” or “at least I don’t do (fill in the blank)”, so God won’t punish me. Teaching more about God’s righteousness probably turns some people off because it forces us to really look at ourselves.

5. It is comforting to know God’s goodness, love and grace are part of His immutable character, because we can rely on him despite our short-comings. This is very different than man’s goodness, love and grace, which are more conditional.

6. I don’t think there’s anything we can do to make God more loving and gracious toward us. He loves us even when we are not loveable and is always willing to be gracious and merciful. But, that’s not to say he doesn’t discipline or ultimately judge.

Since God is perfection, the fact that we were created in his image, is in itself a demonstration of his love and grace.

7. If God didn’t know the future it would imply that he wasn’t omnipotent. That would be disturbing because we might not be able to rely on him or trust him to carry out his promises. Also, if he couldn’t see the future, I wonder how he would be able to work everything out for good.

8. It could theoretically be comforting if God didn’t know the future because it would explain why bad things happen.

9. The question of “Why does God allow evil?” is one many of us have thought about. It seems no matter how you answer it, it’s difficult to reconcile. I can see how Open Theology might be a reactionary theology as a way to answer that question.

The danger of theology that is reactionary is that it could lead to an emotional reaction or one that is sensational, overly simplified or just not accurate.

10. I’m challenged by thinking about God’s attributes. And, I’ve never heard of open theology, so that is very interesting.

Q1a. Which of the three positions concerning God’s sovereignty do you think best represents God? Explain.

A1a. In choosing which of the three best represents God’s sovereignty it is key to assess these choice in light of all Scripture. I suspect it is possible to choose any one of these three while quoting verses to support the position; but the key is to ensure that whichever choice one makes that it doesn’t nullify other attributes such as Omniscience or Omnipotence. With that in mind, I opt for Providential Sovereignty. This choice allows God to remain God by not undermining other attributes. Meticulous Sovereignty suggests that God is the creator of evil. Providential Sovereignty suggests that God abdicates control lover His creation to fate, as Deists believe.

Q1b. How does God’s sovereignty relate to the fall of Adam and Eve? Do you think that He planned the fall or simply allowed it to Happen?

A1b. As mentioned above, God doesn’t plan evil, though He may not choose to intervene to prevent it.

Q2. How is the cross a demonstration of God’s righteousness (Romans 3:25).

A2. Since God always does what is right and just, man’s sin deserved death and damnation. God did not let the sinner off the hook with a wink, as an unjust judge would do. He showed mercy, yet fulfilled justice by placing my guilt and His wrath on Jesus. Jesus is the propitiation for my sin.

Q3. Do you think that the Gospel can be accurately communicated with a presentation of God’s love without reference to His righteousness?

A3. Though the majority of modern American churches seem to think this is so, this is a watered down gospel. God’s love is not manifested by my self-esteem or my wealth. God’s love is manifested by bringing me, a sinner, to repentance. If God always acts in accordance to what is right an just, then He must judge me according to my sinful condition as fallen man. To preserve His righteousness, the wages of my sin must be paid.

Q4. Why do you think that it became less and less common to teach about God’s righteousness?

A4. We live in a man-centered culture. To often, the focus of our faith is not on who God is and how we can worship Him, but on how we can be “spiritual” and God can serve us. If we truly studied the attributes of God and meditated upon them, we would be much more aware of our wickedness, as God’s righteousness should overwhelm us in our sinfulness.

Q5. How does it comfort you to understand that God’s goodness, love and grace are part of His immutable character? Explain.

A5. It is only by God’s goodness, love and grace that I can take my next breath. It is only by His goodness, love and grace that my sins are forgiven and that I have everlasting life. If these were not part of God’s immutable character then He could change in His character in a moment and my existence in time and in eternity is now subject to His moods. There is little reason for faith in such a proposition, as God would then be as unreliable as man.

Q6a. What do we have to do to make God act lovingly and graciously toward us?

A6a. Nothing at all. God’s common grace is available to all His creatures. This is not to say that He extends His Saving Grace to all. So whether we are talking about this life or the next, it is all God’s grace, not man’s works.

Q6b. How does the understanding that we were created in the image of God help you to answer this?

A6b. Knowing that I am created in God’s image (Imago Dei) makes be increasingly aware that my daily living falls very short of His standards of Righteousness, goodness, love, etc. Yet by submitting myself to His will, the Holy Spirit can equip me to grow in godliness.

Q7. In what ways would it disturb you if you thought that God did not know the future? Explain.

A7. If God did not know the future He could not be God as He would no longer be eternal, all-knowing and all-powerful. It is a frightening thought that the God of the Universe could be surprised by anything.

Q8. In what way would it comfort you if you thought that God did not know the future?

A8. If I were one who feels I have to justify why my God allows certain events in history and I didn’t want to have to explain how a “loving God could allow such a thing to happen”, i.e. The Third Reich, Hurricane Katrina, the Patriots losing the Super Bowl; then I suppose I would find it easier to say He didn’t see it coming.

Q9a. Further discuss how Open Theology might be reactionary theology to the question, “Why does God allow evil?”

A9a. I guess it’s because He is God. I do not believe He has to explain it to me. I grew up in a time when my father said to do something I knew it did not warrant an explanation, “because I said so” was quite sufficient. This type of situation, God allowing evil, is seen very early on in Genesis where Joseph is sold into slavery by His brothers. Joseph experienced undeserved trial upon trial, yet even he, in his years of suffering said, “you meant it for evil, but God meant it for good.” We may not be aware of the good that has taken place as a result of the evil that God has allowed to take place.

Q9b. Discuss the danger of all theology that is constructed as reactionary.

A9b. A theology that is reactionary is a theology that is being defined to serve a predetermined end. That is to say, I will search the scriptures to find a way to justify my theology rather than letting the scriptures set the agenda for me. Simply stated, do I expect to serve God according to the scriptures or do I expect the scriptures to serve me.

Q10. How was your thinking most challenged by this lesson?

A10. It is easy to get lulled into being very cavalier about God and His character. It is very easy to begin to take His Grace and mercy for granted. By dwelling on the attributes of God and the scriptures that give evidence of these attributes, I am reminded of the awesomeness of God and the smallness of man.

1a. Which of the three positions concerning God’s sovereignty do you think best represent God? Explain.

I have to go with the view titled “providential sovereignty” because it involves His choice (to allow or cause) and therefore it best represent who He is. God was the first cause in our existence and why we are here at the same time. He chose to create us and He chose our plan of salvation through his Son. I believe He allowed the temptation in the Garden with Eve to occur but if you ask me to explain it completely or with conviction I might be a bit hard pressed.

b. How does God’s sovereignty relate to the fall of Adam and Eve? Do you think that He planned the fall or simply allowed it to occur?

God allowed Eve to be tempted and knew she’s “bite”. He knew what her choice would be and what the consequences were and then provided His plan to us over the years til His Son came to redeem us. Eve chose and chose the wrong thing because she is not god and God knew that would happen.

2. How is the cross a demonstration of God’s righteousness (see Romans 3:25 whom God put forward as a propitiation by his blood, to be received by faith. This was to show God’s righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over former sins.)?

God’s wrath was completely satisfied by Jesus’ death on the cross at Calvary. A holy and perfect God can not simply forgive sin without a penalty or on any other basis the thru His Son who CHOSE to die in our place.

God punishes sin while we are in the flesh. He will often allow us to go astray so we can learn and grow! He isn’t a puppet master and He fully demonstrates our love for us through His son’s death. This may sound ghastly to some but it was the ONLY WAY.

3. Do you think that the Gospel can be accurately communicated with a presentation of God’s love without reference to His righteousness?

No way Jose! The very notion that God’s plan of salvation through His son’s atoning death is unscriptural. He is merciful to whom He chooses to be merciful because only he knows a man’s heart.

4. Why do you think that it has become less and less common to teach about God’s righteousness?

Easy: no one like to talk about “sin” but rather we coddle it with words like mistakes, or my beliefs, or I’ll have it my way, etc. I am doing the Purpose Driven Life with a small group from our church and the one thing this best-selling book didn’t really talk about was sin and its effects. IMHO, Pastor Rick Warren did this on purpose because he just wanted to tickle people’s ears and get them interested in God’s plan. If he had spoken of sin early on in the book or emphasized it in-depth it would have sold 25K copies rather then over 25 million or so world-wide.

5. How does it comfort you to understand that God’s goodness, love and grace are part of His immutable character? Explain.

God is the same “yesterday, today and forever” and that means His word is solid and His ways are too. Trust is a big thing in our culture of “cheating, lying and doing as we please” but He always shows us a better way if we just choose to obey Him. The more I obey Him the better my life is….even when it isn’t!!

6. What do we have to do to make God act lovingly and graciously toward us?

We can’t work our way closer to Him or make Him love us any more then He already does. God wishes for all of us to be saved and wishes “none to perish” but He also knows some of us will choose Him and some of us won’t. Those that rebel will pay the ultimate penalty with eternal separation from Him.

b. How does the understanding that we were created in the image of God help you to answer this?

On the sixth day…man-kind was created…and it was very good! Genesis 1 describes the beginning enough for us to understand that we stand out by His grace and were made in His image.

7. In what ways would it disturb you if you thought that God did not know the future? Explain.

God wouldn’t be God if he didn’t know the future and what would happen! What is Satan could win?? What if ??? The questions would become frightening to handle and we’d question existence, purpose and His plan.

8. In what way would it comfort you if you thought that God did not know the future?

In now way could it comfort me.

9. Further discuss how Open Theology might be a reactionary theology attempting to answer the question, “Why does God allow evil?”

This is an issue of polemics and I must note that I was surprised Gregory Boyd was listed as a scholar and theologian that adhered to an “open” theology. Well, I think Genesis 50:20 sums it up when Joseph says basically that “what you meant for evil…God meant for good.” That says a lot about life, indeed, but I think open theology goes too far with man-made ways of trying to understand this very tough question of evil.

We react to the idea by building blocks to help support us…blocks that we maybe glean from Scriptures to suit our needs but not necessarily His.

b. Discuss the danger of all theology that is constructed as reactionary.

Reactionary theology can sometimes be construed as ‘defensive’ and designed to protect without maybe thinking through the issue completely and in total. We must react to attacks which are based on man- made philosophy or reason with gentle-ness.

10. How was your thinking most challenged by this lesson?

Open Theology tickled my ears somewhat and I may read up more about it. I don’t judge anyone whose views are different then my own so long as they can support their points with Scripture and dialogue on it.

1. - I believe that Providential Sovereignty best represents God. He is in control and intervenes on everything. He allows and causes everything to happen. “All thing according to His will.
— I think that God both caused and allowed Adam and Eve to fall. He predestined it to happen, knowing that it would be for the better of mankind. It created a need for us to love and respect His power and sovereignty.

2. Romans 3:25 teaches God’s righteousness, thru the cross via propitiation. The wrath of someone who has been unjustly wronged has been satisfied. Propitiation means that the cross satisfies the holy wrath of God thru Christ’s payment for sin.

3. This is where Proverbs 4:7 teaches, “The beginning of wisdom is this: Get wisdom, and whatever else you get, get insight.” Thru Wisdom, we learn of the righteousness of God is taught to us thru the Gospel.

4. If “They” don’t teach about the righteousness of God, then we have no fear of His wrath, no reason to follow the rules. “They” can interpret the Bible any way “They” want,” example…the Episcopalian church.

5. Comfort comes in knowing that these will NEVER change. He can’t change anything above the arch. No matter what we do, He will love us and offer us His grace.

6. - Respect and honor Him and His ways.
– Via His grace we are created in his image “Imago Dei”, so we have the same commutable attributes to be like Him as much as we want.

7. I’d be an “Ooops…what’s he doing here?” Johnny Carson’s “Carnak the Magnificent” would be just as all knowing (Omniscient).

8. I can’t imagine Him not knowing the future. So… it would not comfort me at all.

9. -Open Theology allows for God to be a hap hazard, “Oh well” kinda god.
– It also means He could possibly loose in the “War of evil.”

10. My challenge this lesson has been with Open Theology, and how “regular” theologians can even go there unless their playing devil’s advocate for teaching and learning discussions.

1a. Which of the three positions concerning God’s sovereignty do you think best represent God? Explain.

The “providential sovereignty” view, which states that God either causes things to happen or allows things to happen, best represents Him although to a limited extent I can agree with “meticulous sovereignty”. Although God is ultimately the first cause in all things, it would be wrong to charge Him with being the author of sin and rebellion (James 1:13). The “providential oversight” position sounds something like Deism to me in that this view says that God only allows things to happen.

1b. How does God’s sovereignty relate to the fall of Adam and Eve? Do you think that He planned the fall or simply allowed it to occur?

To say that He planned the fall would be to say that God would be the author of sin so it instead follows that He allowed Adam and Eve to make a free choice to obey Him or not. Although God knew what their choice would be, He did not wish for their disobedience but rather planned to deal with it in the best way possible.

2. How is the cross a demonstration of God’s righteousness (see Romans 3:25)?

“…whom God displayed publicly as a propitiation in His blood through faith. This was to demonstrate His righteousness…” (Romans 3:25 NAS)

The demands of God’s justice were satisfied by Jesus’ death on the cross. God could not arbitrarily forgive sin on any other basis. The penalty for sin is death and only He (Jesus)” who knew no sin” (2 Cor. 5:21) was the only one who could take the penalty in our place. God’s righteousness was thus demonstrated in that He fully punished sin and could still declare that whoever trusted in Christ would be made righteous.

3. Do you think that the Gospel can be accurately communicated with a presentation of God’s love without reference to His righteousness?

Absolutely not. To do so would be to diminish the reason for Jesus’ atoning death. Also this would be an unbalanced approach of trying to present the gospel; God is equally just as He is merciful.

4. Why do you think that it has become less and less common to teach about God’s righteousness?

One reason could very well be is that if we take a good look at God’s righteousness our own unrighteousness is revealed. As the morality of our culture continues to degrade, an honest look at sin becomes increasingly difficult. (John 3:19, 20).

5. How does it comfort you to understand that God’s goodness, love and grace are part of His immutable character? Explain.

The attribute of God’s unchangeableness is comforting in that His immutability also means that He can confidently be relied on. We can trust that He will always show goodness, love and grace to us.

6a. What do we have to do to make God act lovingly and graciously toward us?

There is nothing we can do. God already loves us as much as He can and can be no more gracious toward us than He is. Even when God chastens us and the experience is unpleasant, these actions on His part are still loving and gracious. But for those who rebel against God, grace should not be taken for granted; if mercy is continually rejected, the only alternative left is judgment. For some, there will come a time for them when God’s actions will not seem so loving or gracious.

6b. How does the understanding that we were created in the image of God help you to answer this?

From the beginning, humankind was meant to have a special relationship with God not shared by any other creature. Love and grace were also demonstrated to us from the very first in unique ways not shared by the angels.

7. In what ways would it disturb you if you thought that God did not know the future? Explain.

It would affect my sense of security in God’s providential care. If God did not know the future one would begin to think that maybe God wasn’t all powerful either. It would also raise questions in my mind whether He was also not completely sovereign or self-sufficient.

8. In what way would it comfort you if you thought that God did not know the future?

I don’t think I could take comfort in that thought. I’d be too busy being disturbed to feel at ease with any notion of God having incomplete knowledge.

9a. Further discuss how Open Theology might be a reactionary theology attempting to answer the question, “Why does God allow evil?”

The problem of how a good God can allow evil to exist has raised all kinds of opinions. It seems to me that open theists suppose if traditional theism is correct (in the sense that God has allowed the existence of evil in the world for the “greater good”) then this somehow makes God directly or indirectly responsible for it. If God doesn’t have complete knowledge of the future then this absolves Him of liability for evil, according to open theology.

9b. Discuss the danger of all theology that is constructed as reactionary.

In church history there were times when traditional doctrines were challenged and in their zeal to protect them, the defenders sometimes went further then necessary and went to extremes. Reactionary theology carries the danger of creating new errors in the effort to combat error.

10. How was your thinking most challenged by this lesson?
(Just when I thought it was safe to go back into the water…) After the discussion about the incommunicable attributes of God, we began to look into divine characteristics, the communicable ones, which are easier to wrap one’s mind around. Then we were hit with the concept of Open Theology. This issue raises some questions where, I believe, the answers we can come up are only those that finite humans can speculate about.