Session 8: The Doctrine of the Trinity - Biblical Defense
Posted by: carrie in Spring 2008Spring 2008 Online Certificate Students:
View all sessions below. Then log all your comments, questions, discussion question answers, criticisms, or thoughts below. Time spent in the comments section will apply toward your one hour of community time per week. To download audio sessions, visit the course homepage on the TTP site. The next session will be posted each Wed.
Note:
This is not the place for general discussion and questions. Go to the foyer for general discussion and refer to the FAQ on the right for question. Time spent in the comments section will apply toward your one hour of community time per week. To download audio sessions, visit the course homepage on the TTP site. The next session will be posted each Wed.
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Is the doctrine of the Trinity taught in the Old Testament? Is Christ God? What about when Christ said that the Father is greater than He is? What about when Christ is called the first born of all creation? Upon completion of this session, the student will have built a biblical foundation for the doctrine of the Trinity looking at the teachings of both the Old and New Testaments. The student will also learn a strong defense for the deity of Christ, recognizing that Christ was either a madman or the Lord of the universe. We will also struggle through some passages that seem to present problems to the doctrine of the Trinity and Christ’s deity. In short, the student should leave with a solid defense for the doctrine of the Trinity.
Does the Bible teach the Trinity?: Play Now | Play in Popup | Download (191) What does the Old Testament say about oneness?: Play Now | Play in Popup | Download (50) What does the New Testament say about oneness?: Play Now | Play in Popup | Download (191) Explicity teaching concerning the deity of Christ: Play Now | Play in Popup | Download (191) Does Jesus ever claim to be God?: Play Now | Play in Popup | Download (191) Explicit teaching concerning the deity of the Holy Spirit: Play Now | Play in Popup | Download (191)
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March 17th, 2008 at 4:14 pm
FYI:
Well boys and girls, looks like the videos are messed up on this page for this session. I watched the first two but the remaining four were all the first one again (TR8a). Until the TTP IT crew fixes this, here’s a link where you can get the remaining videos, if you didn’t know already. It is: http://www.reclaimingthemind.org/ttp/courses/TR/08
I’d like to also let you know that these are download links and do not open a media player like the ones on this page do.
God bless,
Rick
March 18th, 2008 at 5:41 pm
TR -Week 8 – Group Discussion Questions;
1. It all goes back to the arch. If we don’t understand that Christ is ABOVE the arch, as is our understanding that God is ABOVE the arch, than what is the foundational support for orthodoxy? It’s either I AM…or I’M NOT. If the answer is I’M NOT, then we have a lunatic for a leader, ie a cult.
2. So that they can have a “Burger King” life. “Have it YOUR way” of living and believing. Hey, it sounds like some of my neighbors…
3. I think it’s a great argument. It really helps, given the other options. But…. I will add that giving the “Madman” argument too early in a non believers walk will usually get a deer in the headlights response. Once they are a bit open to the possibility of Christ’s deity… then we have a great argument or path to continue their walk.
4. Understanding of the Holy Spirit is a difficult subject to grasp a hold of. It’s not as black and white in the Bible as maybe we’d like. Especially for someone without any formal study such as TTP. I think there are more people, even in church lay leadership that really do not have a true understanding of the Holy Spirit…so they don’t want to teach it and get stuck with “I don’t know” answers. Hence it’s not talked about enough.
5. Sure. Before all these lessons and foundational building over the last 8 weeks, I’ve placed God as #1, Jesus #2 and the Holy Spirit #3. This is a subordinate order. It’s a lack of understanding… and a prior lack of orthodox teaching as we showed last week, ie water-steam-ice.
6. Jesus taught us to pray to the Father and ask Him for the wisdom and discernment to allow the Holy Spirit to be recognized within us. After that, we should have a rightful understanding in our mind and hearts.
7. This lesson has helped me start to rearrange and even out my 1-2-3 subordinate view of The Father, The Son and The Holy Spirit to more of a 1-1-1 attitude. I still have my struggles though.
March 20th, 2008 at 7:11 pm
Trinitarianism - Session 8
Q1. Why do you think that Christianity has historically made belief in the deity of Christ as the primary test for orthodoxy?
A1. The Gospel is that Christ became the perfect sacrifice and died for my sins and that He rose again overcoming death. If Jesus was only man, that is to say, if Jesus was not also fully God, then He could not and would not have been a spotless sacrifice; He would have been a sinner just like me. If Jesus is not God, then Jesus is not Savior. If Jesus is not Savior, what is Christianity?
Q2. Why do you think that cults reject Christ’s deity?
A2. Christ’s deity is key to His gift of salvation to mankind. If I belong to a religion that equates my earthly works to my way of salvation, then why do I need a deified Christ? A human Jesus, who was a fine teacher and role model will do just fine.
Q3. How strong of an argument for Christ’s deity is the “arrogance of a madman?” How do you think an objector could respond to this argument?
A3. The old adage of Jesus being a Liar, a Lunatic or Lord rings true with myself and with many Christian believers. However, if I am a skeptic, first of all I do not believe the Word, for it is foolishness to me; and if I do not believe the Word, then why wouldn’t I be perfectly comfortable with the conclusion that Jesus was a Liar or a Lunatic?
Q4. Why do you think so little is said about the Holy Spirit, even though He is equal to the Father and Son in power and dignity?
A4. There are a few reasons that come to mind. First of all the Father, though man has not seen Him, is frequently described in anthropomorphic terms. So, though He is God, we may envision Him through these shared human attributes. Jesus’ humanity is well recorded in the Gospels, so again, we relate to Him in a human way, though we acknowledge His deity. Many pages of both the Old and New Testaments describes God, His Virtues, His judgments, etc.
On the contrary, the Holy Spirit is not portrayed in human terms or with human attributes, so we do not envision Him as a person, but often times as a “thing” or as a “power” or “force”. His presence is either clouded in obscure language or mystery in the Scriptures, so He is not as obvious a the Father and Jesus are.
Q5. Do you unknowingly subordinate the Person of the Holy Spirit to the Father and the Son? Why or why not?
A5. My response to Q5 addresses this point too.
Q6. What can you do to rightly elevate the Holy Spirit to His rightful place in the Trinity both in your mind and heart?
A6. Pray that the Holy Spirit will enlighten me in the Word that I would be more conscious of His role in the Scriptures. Also, as Christ introduced the Holy Spirit as His direct replacement in the lives of the Apostles and believers, we must seek His guidance in our lives and in our spiritual growth.
Q7. How was your thinking most challenged by this lesson. Explain.
A7. The mystery of the Trinity is very difficult for the human mind to grasp. The Scriptures are very clear, God is three persons, each person is fully God, There is one God. I read it plainly in the Scriptures, I believe it as truth, but I don’t fully understand it in my finite mind. A key challenge for me is praying to whom? Do I pray to Father, Son or Spirit? Does it depend what the issue is? If I pray to the wrong person, will He pass it on? Does He need to pass it on, since God is all-knowing? I am not trying to sound flippant, but I am speaking as a human who is trying to understand who God is and how I am to properly relate to Him (singular entity, plural persons, equal, but with differing roles).
March 22nd, 2008 at 2:06 am
Session 8 Discussion Questions
1. Christ asked the question, “Who do men say that I am?” (Matthew 16:13). Why do you think that Christianity has historically made belief in the deity of Christ as the primary test for orthodoxy?
The New Testament clearly and emphatically makes the case for Christ’s deity. The Church from its earliest days knew that if Jesus is not God who was resurrected from the dead, He could not be our Savior.
2. Mormons do not believe that Christ was God. Jehovah’s Witnesses believe that Christ is Michael the archangel. Why do you think the cults reject Christ’s deity?
A primary reason that cults reject Christ’s deity and other essentials of the faith is really bad hermeneutics. Cults often misread the meanings of some Scriptures and create doctrines based on those misunderstandings. Consequently they either ignore conflicting passages or eisegetically force them to fit their erroneous teachings. Because they misuse the Bible, they cannot be guided by the Holy Spirit’s influence. A person’s comprehension of the things of God must be illuminated by the Holy Spirit. Otherwise, wrong interpretation of Scripture is unavoidable.
3. Further discuss the “Arrogance of a Madman” argument for the deity of Christ. How strong of an argument do you think this is for Christ’s deity? How do you think an objector could respond to this argument?
Some have tried to obscure the horns of the dilemma. Others have questioned whether Jesus’ recorded statements in the gospels are things that He really said.
4. Further discuss the ministry and person of the Holy Spirit. Why do you think that so little is said about Him even though He is equal to the Father and Son in power and dignity?
This is how Jesus said the Holy Spirit would operate. One of the Holy Spirit’s tasks would be to bear witness to Christ and glorify Him (John 16:13-14). He willingly takes a subordinate role, although He often has made His presence known to believers in all ages.
5. Do you unknowingly subordinate the Person of the Holy Spirit to the Father and the Son? Why or why not?
Sometimes it’s easy to do. It’s like the old saying, “squeaky wheel gets the grease”, so because of the mostly quiet way the Holy Spirit does His work, it can almost seem that He is less God than the Father and the Son.
6. What can you do to rightly elevate the Holy Spirit to His rightful place in the Trinity both in your heart and mind?
We who are believers need to remember what the Scriptures say about Him. Also we need to constantly keep in mind He indwells, loves and cares for us. The idea of God’s near presence to us at all times should fill us with a sense of awe and worship. We should be guarding our lives from doing anything that would dishonor or disobey Him. Also we must not quench His promptings (1 Thessalonians 5:19) or to grieve Him (Ephesians 4:30).
7. How was your thinking challenged the most by this lesson? Explain.
That would be in finding ways to explain the problem passages such as those that wrongly interpreted, would call into question Christ’s deity and eternality.
March 24th, 2008 at 12:12 pm
1. Christ asked the question, “Who do men say that I am?” (Matthew 16:13). Why do you think that Christianity has historically made belief in the deity of Christ as the primary test for orthodoxy?
Understanding that Christ is God is paramount to the Christian faith. Christ died according the Scriptures and rose again according to the Scriptures. He could not be born of a man or else he would have inherited man’s sin. If one is to deny that Christ is God, than I do not believe you can be a Christian.
2. Mormons do not believe that Christ was God. Jehovah’s Witnesses believe that Christ is Michael the archangel. Why do you think the cults reject Christ’s deity?
To reject Christ’s deity is to elevate themselves in the heavenly order. Mormons and Jehovah’s Witnesses can now bring Christ down to a human level. A level which they believe is attainable for them, in a sense achieving a state of god-hood in their works and beliefs.
3. Further discuss the “Arrogance of a Madman” argument for the deity of Christ. How strong of an argument do you think this is for Christ’s deity? How do you think an objector could respond to this argument?
I think this is a strong argument. Josh McDowell uses it well in his books on apologetics. Why would the apostles die for a mad man. Sure, there are cults here in the USA where people have died for mad-men, but as the book of Acts points out, this is a movement from God and God will determine what lasts.
4. Further discuss the ministry and person of the Holy Spirit. Why do you think that so little is said about Him even though He is equal to the Father and Son in power and dignity?
I think the Holy Spirit’s role is to point people to Christ and not necessarily Himself. The Holy Spirit is a ‘behind the scenes’ Person throughout Scripture. He moves and shapes events and people to God’s glory without pointing to Himself. What Christ did on the cross and the implications that event has for us is what the Holy Spirit instills within us.
5. Do you unknowingly subordinate the Person of the Holy Spirit to the Father and the Son? Why or why not?
I do so now more than I have in the past. As my walk grows, I have become more aware of the different roles within the God-head. I do not pray to the Holy Spririt directly, but He guides my prayers to the Father through Jesus Christ the Son. I do not know that it is a subordinate position, but merely a different role.
6. What can you do to rightly elevate the Holy Spirit to His rightful place in the Trinity both in your heart and mind?
Be Biblical. I think recognizing the Holy Spirit’s role and being mindful of Him and His power and His role, will help me be a better Christian. Being sensitive to the leading of the Spirit is a key to having a growing walk with the Lord.
7. How was your thinking challenged the most by this lesson? Explain.
The Trinity is a hard concept to grasp. I believe that the Bible clearly teaches that God is made up of 3 persons who are the same in essence, yet different in roles and person-hood. God is certainly relational and how He relates to us and Himself is truly challenging.
March 24th, 2008 at 8:59 pm
1. Belief in the deity of Christ is central to orthodoxy. If Jesus was not deity it would negate the atonement. If he were a created being, he would not be powerful enough to save us, would not be able to hear or answer our prayers, and would not be worthy of our worship and it would in fact be idolatry.
2. I think the cults reject Christ’s deity because from a human perspective it is easier to believe there is one God if Christ is not divine. It just alleviates some of struggle and makes it more palatable.
3. ??
4. Little is said about the Holy Spirit because his role seems to be more of a hidden, humble one. The central focus is on Christ. Also, perhaps the Holy Spirit’s subtlety helps to strengthen our own spiritual nature because we have to discern His working in our lives.
5. Yes, I probably do subordinate the person of the Holy Spirit because I think of Him as a force rather than as a personage. Even though we’ve never seen the Father I still have some type of image of Him. And since Christ was physical, I can visualize Him as well.
6. What I can do to elevate the Holy Spirit is to really ponder and accept that He truly is a separate personage who is equal to the Father and Son.
7. Honestly, this entire study of the Trinity is challenging to me. I’ve never studied this in depth on this Doctrine and it’s really forcing me to think (and struggle).
April 12th, 2008 at 9:27 pm
Group Discussion Questions #8
1. Christ asked the question, “Who do men say that I am?” (Matt. 16:13). Why do you think that Christianity has historically made belief in the deity of Christ as the primary test for orthodoxy?
Christ is divine or not. If Not, then all who call themselves Christians are committing idolatry. However, Christ without actually coming out and saying He is God, indicated that He was God by causing others to accuse Him of blasphemy. He functioned on earth as one with the same authority as God. The early church recognized this and held to the Divinity of Christ, without Christ’s deity there would be no Church, or at least an orthodox one.
2. Mormons do not believe that Christ was God. Jehovah Witnesses believe that Christ is the brother of Michael the archangel. Why do you think that the cults reject Christ’s deity?
I think mankind tends towards arrogance, thinking he is smarter than God. Since, the Doctrine of the Trinity is difficult to understand and appears to be contradictory, some think it must be in error. One God, but in three persons appears to be contradictory and thus felt by some cult groups to mean that there are three gods.
Mankind is not free to interpret scripture as he pleases. Cult groups seem to take that road, traditional scripture doesn’t suit them, so just interpret scripture or add to scripture till they get what they want.
3. Further discuss the “Arrogance of a Madman” argument for the deity of Christ. How strong of an argument do you think this is for Christ’s deity? How do you think an objector could respond to this argument?
Jesus did expressed His authority as that of God. Either he was seeking a death-wish or He was in fact, God. Jesus backed up His so-called arrogance, by healing, raising folks from the dead, forgiving sins, and performing miscellaneous miracles, another words he backed up what He seemed to be stating…that he and the Father are one.
Anyone taking a good look at the argument, examining the Old Testament Scriptures has to have their head buried in the sand not to see that Jesus is exactly what he claims, God.
4. Further discuss the ministry and person of the Holy Spirit. Why do you think that so little is said about Him even though He is equal to the Father and the
Son in power and dignity?
Possibly by design. The Holy Spirit does not draw attention to Himself. James White in ‘The Forgotten Trinity’, states, “…the evidences of His personality and deity are not as numerous or obvious as those for the Father or the Son.” Today, outside of the work of the Holy Spirit for salvation to the unbeliever, I hear very little about the work of the Holy Spirit. The evidence of God the Father is apparent in His works the Creation. The evidence of God the Son is apparent in His life, death and resurrection. But it takes a discriminating Christian to realize and understand the work of the Holy Spirit.
5. Do you unknowingly subordinate the Person of the Holy Spirit to the Father and the Son? Why or why not?
I did, and now I don’t. I have had a recent experience in which the work of the Holy Spirit was manifested to me in a great way. The assurance gained from the experience has left me no doubt as to His present work in the lives of Christians. The Holy Spirit revealed Himself to me in such a way as to leave no room for question as to His being One with the Father and the Son.
6. What can you do to rightly elevate the Holy Spirit to His rightful place in the Trinity both in your heart and mind?
Acknowledge Him in my life, give thanks and praise Him for His presence, His guidance and His on-going work in my life and the Church.
7. How was your thinking challenged the most by this lesson? Explain This semester’s study has been so exciting. The Doctrine of the Trinity is complicated but so essential to understand. I have a much better grasp and feel comfortable after studying the relationship between the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. Also, as I mentioned above I had a personal experience recently in which the Holy Spirit answered my prayer directly and quickly helping me to deal with a personal issue. This answer to my prayer has given me greater assurance as to the work of the Holy Spirit in my life and opened my heart in a great way. It has been very exciting to have the study and the evidence coincide during this semester.