Spring 2008 Online Certificate Students:
View all sessions below. Then log all your comments, questions, discussion question answers, criticisms, or thoughts below. Time spent in the comments section will apply toward your one hour of community time per week. To download audio sessions, visit the course homepage on the TTP site. The next session will be posted each Wed.
Note:
This is not the place for general discussion and questions. Go to the foyer for general discussion and refer to the FAQ on the right for question. Time spent in the comments section will apply toward your one hour of community time per week. To download audio sessions, visit the course homepage on the TTP site. The next session will be posted each Wed.
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If Christ was man, how could He also be God? Was He part man and part God? Or was He a mixture of both? The answers to these questions have defined Christological orthodoxy for the last two thousand years. Upon completion of this session, the student will struggled with the history of the Church as the attempt to understand exactly what it means that Christ is both God and man. The student will learn the various Christological heresies that arose in effort to reconcile the biblical teaching that Christ is God and man. The student will understand why Christ could not represent humanity if he was not fully man, and could not redeem humanity if He was not fully divine.
How did the early Church understand the humanity of Christ?: Play Now | Play in Popup | Download (35) What is Apollinarianism?: Play Now | Play in Popup | Download (29) What is Nestorianism?: Play Now | Play in Popup | Download (97) What is MOnnophysitism?: Play Now | Play in Popup | Download (97) How did the Council of Chalcedon affect Christology?: Play Now | Play in Popup | Download (97) What are the different interpretations of Chalcedon?: Play Now | Play in Popup | Download (97)
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March 27th, 2008 at 3:41 pm
TR -Week 9– Group Discussion Questions;
1. I believe this is called the doctrine of the hypostatic union. Christ being both fully God and fully man. If he was only God… then we would have not had a sacrificial lamb….no real human sacrifice for us. If He was only man… whoopee… people are sacrificed every day somewhere
2. “because he always lives to intercede for them.” He has to be both fully man and God in order to still live today, or He wouldn’t be able to intercede today.
3. Having gone to a Lutheran church for a few years, I would say that I have unwittingly embraced Monophysitism in the past. Because there was no confusion in the natures of both man and God.
4. Jesus is submitting to God’s plan and will. If it is time and this is the way to accomplish your desire, he says, then, Lord, take me. Jesus is committed to God’s will, even above his own desires. It shows that “at this moment” he is fully man.
5a. I think that even though He was both fully God and full man at the same time… He needed to be more man like in outward emotion in order to get his point thru to the people. “Why have you forsaken me?” is a human question spoken to be heard as man in order to be a pure human sacrifice.
5b. ???
6. My challenge was with what the church fathers came up with… each sounded accurate, until the next council o r theology master proved it inaccurate. My question is then, will our current “correct” thinking of the trinity be proved inaccurate someday? And if so… what about my salvation? Hmmmmm.
March 27th, 2008 at 6:40 pm
TTP Trinitarianism - Week 9
Q1. Further discuss the importance that Christ be both fully God and fully man for our salvation.
A. For a sacrifice to be representative of Adam and mankind, that sacrifice must be wholly human. For the sacrifice to be spotless and for that sacrifice to bear the wrath of God, that sacrifice must be God.
Q2. Read Hebrews 7:25. Further discuss the importance that Christ be both fully God and fully man for our prayer life and Christ’s intercession.
A2. “Consequently, he is able to save to the uttermost those who draw near to God through him, since he always lives to make intercession for them.” As we know from xxx, Jesus stands at the right hand of the Father making intercession for us. As we read verse 24, we see that the order of Melchizedek is forever. That is Jesus continues to intercede for the saints until the end of time. We also read in 1 Timothy 2:5, “For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,”
Q3. Of the Christological heresies discussed in this lesson, which one do you have a tendency to unwittingly embrace to some degree? Explain.
A3. Apollinarianism is the most frequent default position in my mind, perhaps from decades of Roman Catholic influence.
Q4. Read Luke 22:42. What did Christ mean when He said in the garden, “Father, if you are willing, remove this cup from me; yet not my will, but Yours be done?” How does this passage affect your understanding of the hypostatic union?
A4. In the Garden as Jesus prayed, in His humanity he knew the suffering that was before Him. Not the suffering of a Roman cross, but the wrath of God about to be poured out upon Him. In his humanity he desired to avoid such torment, but more so He desired to do the will of the Father. His humanity shows in His fear and his divinity shows in his unity with the Father.
Q5. Christ stated on the cross, “My God, My God, why have you forsaken me?” (Matthew 27:46) How does this verse challenge your understanding of the union of Christ’s natures? In other words, was it His human nature, His divine nature, or both that was forsaken?
A5. Jesus was crying out in despair, abandoned by the Father, whom He been with throughout eternity. Since the God-Man was the sin-bearer for mankind, the God-Man cried our in despair; that is both His divinity and His humanity were forsaken at that moment.
Q5 Part 2. How does the understanding that you cannot separate the natures of Christ and the fact that Christ was and is always a member of the immutable Trinity help you to understand what “forsaken” means in this cry? In other words, was Christ ontologically forsaken (forsaken in His actual being) or relationally forsaken (forsaken with respect to His relationship? Explain.
A5 Part 2. His being never changed throughout His time on earth. His Glory and perhaps His full divinity may have been “on hold”; that is, He suspended these attributes in submission to the will of the Father. So when He was abandoned it was relationally.
Q6. How was your thinking challenged most by this lesson? Explain.
A6. Since the truth is so difficult to grasp, the incorrect answers seem to make sense to a frail human mind such as my own.
March 30th, 2008 at 9:55 am
Session 9 Discussion Questions
1. Further discuss the importance that Christ be both fully God and fully man for our salvation.
Gregory of Nazianzus said this:
“If anyone has put trust in him as a man without a human mind, he is really bereft of mind, and quite unworthy of salvation. For that which he has not assumed he has not healed; but that which is united to his Godhead he has also saved. If only half Adam fell, then that which Christ assumes and saves may be half also; but if the whole of his nature fell, it must be united to the whole nature of Him that was begotten, and so be saved as a whole. Let them not, then, begrudge us our complete salvation, or clothe the Saviour only with bones and nerves and the portraiture of humanity.” (Edward R. Hardy, ed., Christology of the Later Fathers, p.218-219)
Apollinarius taught that the spiritual part of Jesus was not human but divine only and therefore was “God in a bod” as stated in our course textbook. But then it was argued against by Gregory and others that, if Apollinarius was right, we could not be saved because Christ did not completely represent humanity during His time on earth.
2. Read Hebrews 7:25. Further discuss the importance that Christ be both fully God and fully man for our prayer life and Christ’s intercession.
“Therefore He is able to save forever those who draw near to God through Him, since He always lives to make intercession for them” (Hebrews 7:25 NASB)
Only Jesus Christ, who alone is fully God and fully man, could be our intercessor before the Father. Chuck pointed out (Thanks, Chuck!) that 1 Timothy 2:5 says, “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.” This tells us that there is only one possible intercessor between us and the Father and who it has to be.
3. Of the Christological heresies discussed in this lesson, which one do you have the tendency to unwittingly embrace to some degree? Explain.
For me that would have to be apollinarianism. I would want to defend Christ’s deity and that would probably be the most appealing view if I didn’t know better.
4. Read Luke 22:42. What did Christ mean when He said in the garden, “Father, if You are willing, remove this cup from Me; yet not My will, but Yours be done”? How does this passage affect your understanding of the hypostatic union?
This statement is one of the best verses that show Jesus’ humanity. Interpreted wrongly, one could make a case against the hypostatic union I suppose, for here you have Jesus’ earnest desire to bypass the cross if it was in the Father’s will to allow it. How could one member of the Godhead desire something different from another?
5. Christ stated on the Cross, “My God My God, why have you forsaken me?” (Matthew 27:46). How does this verse challenge our understanding of the union of Christ’s natures? In other words, was it His human nature, His divine nature, or both that was forsaken?
Since the concept of the hypostatic union is correct, it necessarily follows that both natures, human and divine, were forsaken on the cross, as Jesus became sin for us and bore the full wrath of God. It is difficult to grasp the idea that God the Father could somehow forsake God the Son but it happened and it had to be this way.
6. How does the understanding that you cannot separate the natures of Christ and the fact that Christ was and is always a member of the immutable Trinity help you to understand what “forsaken” means in this cry? In other words, was Christ ontologically forsaken (forsaken in His actual being) or relationally forsaken (forsaken with respect to His relationship)? Explain.
It is true that God’s being “above the arch” is immutable, yet Jesus shared our world for a time, going through every temptation we face in our lives. Finally, He became our sacrifice for sin and was forsaken by the Father on the cross. He was truly forsaken as He died, but exactly what this means remains to my mind a mystery. I would say He was forsaken relationally; ontologically? I don’t think that was possible.
7. How was your thinking challenged the most by this lesson?
Question 6 above was pretty challenging. The Christological heresies discussed in this lesson raised the question to me of how far heterodoxy has to go before it crosses the line into full blown heresy.
March 30th, 2008 at 3:09 pm
1. If Jesus was not fully human, he would not be able to adequately represent us. He needed to be human in order to relate to our struggles and to pay the penalty of our sin. If Jesus was not fully divine, he would not have the power to save us. In order for us to be fully redeemed, both our physical and spiritual natures needed to be represented. And, it wasn’t just Jesus’ death that redeemed us, but his life. With his dual nature, he was able to model a godly life for us. He basically lived the life that we should have.
2. Therefore he is able to save completely those who come to God through him, because he always lives to intercede for them.
In order to intercede for us, Jesus needs to be human so he can continue to represent us. And he needs to be God; otherwise, he wouldn’t be alive or have the omnipresence to hear our prayers.
3. See Chuck’s response in post #2.
4. Jesus’ desire for his Father to “remove this cup” shows his human fear and anguish. He knew the torment (both physical and emotional) he was about to experience, and as a human was praying for another way. But, ultimately he accepts and submits to God’s will, indicating his “oneness” with the Father.
5. I feel it was more Jesus’ divine nature that was forsaken. Because he was one with the Father and knew the glory of God, it had to be devastating to be separated. As humans, when we are separate from God we feel it in more subtle ways…..maybe as an emptiness or lack of fulfillment. We don’t yet have that oneness with God, so separation doesn’t feel as intense. So, I believe a large part of Jesus’ suffering on the cross was God forsaking Jesus relationally.
6. Aside from the general challenge of the trinity, my specific challenge this week was similar to Jay’s in post #1. There have been different ways of viewing the doctrine of the trinity, which makes me question our “truth”.
March 31st, 2008 at 1:28 pm
1. Further discuss the importance that Christ be both fully God and fully man for our salvation.
I believe that this doctrine is important because it validates Scripture. The Scripture gives us a good understanding of who the Messiah will be, and as both God and man, Jesus is able to live a sin-less life and be the fully acceptable sacrafice for our sins according to the Scriptures.
2. Read Hebrews 7:25. Further discuss the importance that Christ be both fully God and fully man for our prayer life and Christ’s intercession.
Hebrews 7:25 “So he is able to save completely those who come to God through him, because he always lives to intercede for them.” Since Christ was our perfect sacrafice, we are no longer viewed as sinners but are seen by God the way Christ is. This gives us access to the Father through Jesus to bring our requests through prayer and help of the Holy Spirit.
3. Of the Christological heresies discussed in this lesson, which one do you have the tendency to unwittingly embrace to some degree? Explain.
Hopefully none of them, but probably Nestorianism. As I am from a Reformed background, I do have the tendency to view Christ through only His divine nature and not much for His human nature. Learning of Christ’s humanity is also a profitable exercise and one I must not neglect.
4. Read Luke 22:42. What did Christ mean when He said in the garden, “Father, if You are willing, remove this cup from Me; yet not My will, but Yours be done”? How does this passage affect your understanding of the hypostatic union?
I think this passage demonstrates the humanity of Christ. He shows that He has a will as well and is willingly submitting that will to the Father. This verse demonstrates that Christ had a human will component that was somehow contrasting from His divine will.
5. Christ stated on the Cross, “My God My God, why have you forsaken me?” (Matthew 27:46). How does this verse challenge our understanding of the union of Christ’s natures? In other words, was it His human nature, His divine nature, or both that was forsaken?
In this context I believe that Christ’s feeling of being forsaken is from a divine will and a human will as well. Jesus did nothing that was deserving of death. Yet, He also knew what was to be done and was a willing sacrafice. Even though He willingly submitted to this course, He also felt forsaken as He was punished for something He did not deserve. It it a truly remarkable event.
6. How does the understanding that you cannot separate the natures of Christ and the fact that Christ was and is always a member of the immutable Trinity help you to understand what “forsaken” means in this cry? In other words, was Christ ontologically forsaken (forsaken in His actual being) or relationally forsaken (forsaken with respect to His relationship)? Explain.
In this case, I feel that Christ was relationally forsaken. I can not believe that He was ontologically fosaken, but I may be wrong. I do not see how Christ could lose His essence of being God or somehow not be God at any point. He certainly was glorified upon the Resurrection. Some things I just do not understand.
7. How was your thinking challenged the most by this lesson?
These issues have been debated for centuries and I do not believe that a human being can ever fully understand what took place from a mechanical point of view. All I know is that God made it work and did it in a way that glorifies Himself. I can not understand what it is to be God, so I can not know what Christ’s feelings or thoughts or substance was while on the cross, but its interesting to discuss.
April 14th, 2008 at 8:58 pm
Group Discussion Questions #9
1. Further discuss the importance that Christ be both fully God and fully man for our salvation?
Jesus Christ asked His followers, “Who do you say that I am?” After all the reading of this class, the answer has never been and is still not easily stated. As God planned from the beginning for the salvation of humankind, He would send His Son to become man, thus be fully human and fully God. God planned it that way, required it, and the Scriptures confirm it. Christ, God’s Son, had to be fully human to be the perfect substitute for humans.
2. Read Heb. 7:25. Further discuss the importance that Christ be both fully God and fully man for our prayer life and Christ’s intercession.
(Heb 7:25) Consequently, he is able to save to the uttermost those who draw near to God through him, since he always lives to make intercession for them.
(Rom 8:34) Who is to condemn? Christ Jesus is the one who died–more than that, who was raised–who is at the right hand of God, who indeed is interceding for us.
Christ as God/Man who is uniquely qualified to hold this position, at the right hand of God. (1Ti 2:5) For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,
3. Of the Christological heresies discussed in this lesson, which one do you have the tendency to unwittingly embrace to some degree? Explain.
Apollinarianism. I tend to put Christ’s Diety above that of His human nature or humanity.
4. Read Luke 22:42. What did Christ mean when He said in the garden, “Father, if You are willing, remove this cup from Me; yet not My will, but Yours be
done”? How does this passage affect your understanding of the hypostatic union?
Jesus, throughout His earthly ministry showed strength and moral courage, so now He doesn’t? What would cause such agony? The spiritual agony of bearing the sins of the world. Jesus was going to “drink of the wrath of the Almighty” (Job 21:20) One can only imagine the agony a sinless soul would endure by bearing all the sin of a sinful world. It is difficult to understand the mystery of the process that was finished on the cross by which there was a separation between the Father and the son, but the darkness came, Jesus Christ died having born all our sins. Christ did bear the cup or wrath of God. This passage confirms that Jesus Christ was the Son of God, one with the Trinity, bearing the cup of wrath of all mankind.
5. Christ stated on the Cross, “My God My God, why have you forsaken me?” (Matt. 27:46). How does this verse challenge our understanding of the union of Christ’s natures? In other words, was it His human nature, His divine nature, or both that was forsaken? How does the understanding that you cannot separate the natures of Christ and the fact that Christ was and is always a member of the immutable Trinity help you to understand what “forsaken” means in this cry? In other words, was Christ ontologically forsaken (forsaken in His actual being) or relationally forsaken (forsaken with respect to His relationship)? Explain.
Look to answer #4 above. As I mentioned, this is a bit of a mystery how God could forsake for a time His Son, but I believe He was forsaken in His actual being. He actually had to carry the sins of the world alone.
6. How was your thinking challenged the most by this lesson? Explain.
Difficult questions to answer. I wish my Biblical knowledge were more complete. I felt so inadequate to make reasonable answers.